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Post by III on Jun 23, 2008 19:09:35 GMT -5
OK, took the plunge. Refurbished a snail type air cleaner from an S3 and put new tubes and the box on my KH400. Things a friggin dog now if it aint over 5500 and WFO. Pulled the rear cover and element out and she runs as good as when I had the Emgo pods on her. Dont want to jerk around with jetting until I get the Dencos back. They ship from Michigan tomorrow hopefully. Anyone run this setup on their KH and have jetting ideas to share? Also need to find some good rebuild kits for the carbs. H1, H2 kits are everywhere. Not KH400's.
III
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Post by reprodecals on Jun 23, 2008 20:34:39 GMT -5
KH400 carb kits I can help you with. I have some S1, S2 & S3/KH400 carb kits on order from Sudco but I am not sure when they will arrive. I can also get $19.99 Keyster kits from another source with no wait.
Non OEM carb kits are all about the same in my opinion. They all use aftermarket components which are generally fine but never quite as good as genuine Mikuni parts. You could make up your own carb rebuild kits with genuine Mikuni parts by buying each part separately but they would cost about 4 times as much as the aftermarket kits. The float valve alone is more expensive than a whole H1 or H1 carb kit if you buy a real Mikuni part.
I've used these on my own bikes and they are okay.
Andre
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Post by III on Jun 23, 2008 22:02:21 GMT -5
Thats funny because I was just composing an email to you about the kits I saw at your store Andre. What ones are these? Kawasaki S3 & KH400 Carburetor Rebuild Kit 1974-78 Made in Japan to OEM specifications Kit contains all necessary parts to rebuild one OEM carburetor. Z1-SIKK-0029 I dont care to buy the keyster ones based on others experience thanks. Anyplace to get new floats for the KH400s I was sort of fishin here for jetting-setting suggestions for after installing the chambers. But I have not taken those carbs off to rebuild since I bought the bike and it does need doing. III
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Post by reprodecals on Jun 23, 2008 23:27:04 GMT -5
III,
The kits on my site right now are Keyster. I have also had bad experience with their kits in the past but they were the older ones in the little orange or red boxes. They were so bad, the last one I bought, was absolutely useless and I tossed out everything but the float bowl gasket. The new carb kits they make are noticeably improved. I am pretty careful what I sell since anything that I sell, good or bad reflects on my company.
I can get he Keysters any time. The Sudco carb kits are a couple of dollars cheaper but they don't have them in stock yet. They are a new product in their latest catalog. Apparently they are on their way from Japan but they won't commit to a delivery date to me. I have some on order and will be stocking them.
I have no source for floats but there is company north of Toronto called Winners Circle that I mentioned to Darrin today in another thread. They have a lot of hard to find carb parts. I found their phone number. It's 905 475-2552. Maybe they can help.
Andre
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Post by mraxl on Jun 24, 2008 6:03:21 GMT -5
Andre, I have had no personal experience with Keyster kits. However, it has been reported by numerous people on both sides of the pond about problems with these kits to a point that carbs fitted with them cannot be tuned. The needles were not the correct taper or length and the jets were not the same size as Mikuni.
If the new Keyster kits meet or are the same as Mikuni specs that would be great. Do you have the ability and would you measure and compare needle taper/length and jet port diameter to stock Mikuni?
How can the "new" kits be distinguished from the old?
Another thing about kits that has always bothered me is "one size fits all". On all Kaw series the stock jetting and needles are not the same from year to year. What size jets and needles come in each kit?
I've not heard anything bad about the Sudco kits but they haven't been out there very long either.
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Post by reprodecals on Jun 24, 2008 8:17:03 GMT -5
Andre, I have had no personal experience with Keyster kits. However, it has been reported by numerous people on both sides of the pond about problems with these kits to a point that carbs fitted with them cannot be tuned. The needles were not the correct taper or length and the jets were not the same size as Mikuni. If the new Keyster kits meet or are the same as Mikuni specs that would be great. Do you have the ability and would you measure and compare needle taper/length and jet port diameter to stock Mikuni? How can the "new" kits be distinguished from the old? Another thing about kits that has always bothered me is "one size fits all". On all Kaw series the stock jetting and needles are not the same from year to year. What size jets and needles come in each kit? I've not heard anything bad about the Sudco kits but they haven't been out there very long either. I don't stock the Keyster kits and don't plan to. I have ordered the KH400 kits for customers but only stock the Sudco kits. The old Keyster kits came in little red or orange boxes and they list a ridiculous number of bikes they fit. I have attached a picture of the KH400 kit with the box beside it to show what the newer Keyter kit looks like. When I have bought the older type kits, they were useless. Unlike the old kits, this one is made for model. When someone wants the 400 kits, I order them and have no experience with it myself. I just stock H1, H2 and RD kits from Sudco. I couldn't even guess how many Sudco kits I have sold over that past couple of years and nobody has ever contacted me with any negative comments. When people aren't happy, they are generally quick to let me know. Since I don't have any experience with Keyster kits on a triple, I couldn't comment on the jet sizes being incorrect. I do agree about the needles and I suppose they make these kits more generic to save money at their end. I will NEVER use an aftermarket needle on any carb I rebuild. They never seem to be right no matter what is stamped on them and they are the first part of any kit that I pitch into the trash can. These aftermarket carb kits are economical when you look at the $16.50 cost for an H1 or H2 kit. Personally, I use what I need and nothing more. For what the kits cost, if I only use a the float valve, it is worth it since a Mikuni float valve is $20.65 compared to $16.50 a whole kit. I will never say any aftermarket kit is perfect but the value is tough to beat when you look at the individual cost of all of the parts included. However, it is important for anyone rebuilding their carb(s) to check the sizes of every piece to make sure they are correct for your bike. That goes without saying.
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Post by mraxl on Jun 25, 2008 16:00:35 GMT -5
I just bought another S3. The PO had just rebuilt the carbs using a Keyster kit. He kept the parts removed and the Keyster box. It was the "new" type box.... # KK-0029
I pulled the needle from one of the carbs and compared it to the old Mik needle. The Mik needle was a 4EJ4... the Keyster was marked Y44. I measured overall length and the diameter every 10mm down the needle. There was no more than 0.002" dif on any measurement. The taper started at the same place on each needle. Overall length within 0.004".
Conclusion: There is no distinguishable difference between the Keyster Y44 needle and the Mikuni 4EJ4 needle as used in the S3.
I haven't looked at the jets and don't have the ability to accurately compare jet diameters.
The Keyster box says #85 main, #22.5 pilot.
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Post by Lou on Jun 25, 2008 16:28:33 GMT -5
The best way to measure them would to take them to a machine shop and use an optical comparator or shadowgraph...they will give you a 10X measurement within .0002”... I’m sure in carbs you would want around .0005~.001” tolerance on needles and jets…but then again I could be wrong.
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Post by reprodecals on Jun 25, 2008 18:03:08 GMT -5
Even if jet measurements are identical, I am told they may not all work the same way. I had a long conversation with someone who I think is knowledgeable and he explained to me (I didn't understand it all) how the machining of the holes in a jet can affect the way they work. Sort of like the rifling of gun barrel affecting how a bullet comes out.
True or not? I don't know.
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Post by mraxl on Jun 25, 2008 18:04:19 GMT -5
I measured with calipers on a tapered needle at points measured crudely with a tape measure... one thirty years old the other new. If I rechecked the same parts I probably would get the same kind of error just in remeasuring. The point was that, in my opinion, a set of the new Keyster needles are not different enough from the stock needles to create a tuning problem.
Yea, optics is the best way to measure jet ID. The nearest one to me is over 40 mi away. It's not too big of a problem as stock jets, mains anyway, are not used.
I've never checked Keyster parts before but have talked to those that have and it would seem Andre is correct in saying Keyster has improved their quality.... at least on the S3 kit.
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Post by mraxl on Jun 25, 2008 18:05:53 GMT -5
Even if jet measurements are identical, I am told they may not all work the same way. I had a long conversation with someone who I think is knowledgeable and he explained to me (I didn't understand it all) how the machining of the holes in a jet can affect the way they work. Sort of like the rifling of gun barrel affecting how a bullet comes out. True or not? I don't know. That is true!
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Post by III on Jun 25, 2008 18:40:07 GMT -5
So this leads us to the all important question, that no one has asked...
Do you have the kits for the KH400 carbs in stock? Or are they on order as I thought you alluded to Andre? I need three sets in any event.
Thanks Steve
III
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Post by Lou on Jun 25, 2008 21:33:43 GMT -5
Sure, its true to a point...Burt Monro could make his own and tune it though. They need to be turned in a lathe to make them dead on center and the tapers have to be done before the hole... the hole has to be reamed an H7 standard with no burrs...a drilled hole will leave swirled. Send me any questionable sets with a set for comparison and I will analyze them for you guys when I get a bit of time.
Lou
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Post by reprodecals on Jun 25, 2008 21:43:44 GMT -5
So this leads us to the all important question, that no one has asked...Do you have the kits for the KH400 carbs in stock? Or are they on order as I thought you alluded to Andre? I need three sets in any event. Thanks Steve III I don't stock the Keyster kits. We order them when a customer orders them from us. The Sudco S3/KH400 kits not even in their warehouse yet. They are supposedly on their way to them but no ETA. If you want the keyster kits, e-mail me at sales@reproductiondecals.com and we'll hook you up with a set. Andre
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