early regulator testing?

[H2 Dude]

Not much out there on the A series ( same as early H1) brown..green , black and white.
so the green and black wires are to the brushes and the white to the generator.
I have about 8 Ohms when the green and black are connected.
green to body reads continuity as well as black.and so does white..Is white supposed to be grounded to body?
Red wire to body is fine no continuity.
and yet I get no voltage .
What wires from the regulator do I connect with a volt/ohm meter and what readings are?
All I have is connect terminal 1 to 2 etc and yet I see no terminal markings on mine.

[lc]

The $64,000 question is with the key on do you have voltage across the two brushes of the alternator? Remember with these bikes the alt. field must be energized to make power. No power at brushes, no output power from alternator. I deep sixed the mechanical regulator on my H1A about 28,000kms ago.

J

[H2 Dude]

Good question Lc. Hmm I wonder why the shop manual says nothing of this ....I'll check Friday morning.
I assume the power comes from the red ( Battery )wire going into the gen then out to the regulator..so if I have no power across the 2 ( green and Black) brushes I have a broken wire/bad connection or one of the diodes is pooched.
I am not an electrical guy..lol

[mraxl]

The charging sys on the early H1 has four components, rotor, stator, rectifier, & regulator.

With engine running at 3000 rpm the voltage at the red (battery) and blue wires should be >13.5v and drop off when rpm is reduced.

With key off... the resistance across the brush wires (black & green at regulator) should be 3.5-5.5 ohms (plug disconnected). If not, rotor is open.

With three yellow wires unplugged, resistance measured between any combination of any two wires should be about an ohm (by memory) and any combination should be the same as any other combination. If not, stator is faulty.

The rectifier can be resistance checked per instructions in manual.

The regulator is a mechanical relay that opens and closes to open & close those contacts within.
If the battery voltage is less than the regulator set point (about 13.5V) then the regulator contacts are closed to provide battery voltage across the rotor brushes.
With key on, something slightly less than battery voltage should be measured across rotor brushes.
If charging can be restored (engine running) by applying battery voltage to the green wire (rotor side), then the regulator is faulty.

If charge light is on intermittently with engine above 2500 rpm, it is an indication that the rotor has loose windings.

[H2 Dude]

I measured all 3 regulators and got the same results at 30 , 30 and 55 ohms..I connected my volt meter across the green and Black brushes with key on and nothing..no voltage.
I checked the stator for broken wires while I was at it and it test good
I have 8 Ohms across the 2 brushes so I am assuming the rotor is good. Might be lower if I went to the rotor itself.

The A series is a generator style not like the H1 .
All I have is out..black , white and green and red going in.
So If I read this right I can connect 12 vlts to the green wire and test.
I'm using a drill to turn the generator

[mraxl]

There are a couple of different charging systems on A series. I don't know what you have but all my prior post comments referred to early H1.
There is an A series manual on the Resource site if that will help.
I question that you can get enough rpm with a drill motor to make the system work.
Applying battery voltage across the brushes should bypass the regulator and make the charging system work, given enough rpm, regardless of wire color but ground must be observed.... check which brush is grounded.

[H2 Dude]

Thanks Dale
It's a CDI A7 1970.
While googling for info I found this.

"Just wondering, is the mechanical regulator bad? Is there something else wrong, like the carbon brush? With the plug unhooked, check to see if the green wire going to the field coil, , is grounded. Check to see if there is a few ohms resistance between the green and black wires to prove the field coil and brush are ok. If everything seems ok with the alternator then a electronic regulator should work if you hook the brown wire to the red on the new regulator and the black wire to the green wire on the regulator. The new regulator has to be grounded. Do those tests to make sure everything else is ok first."

Regulator suggested

"the lifan rectifier regulator is the one to use because there is no field coil in a magnito."

[lc]

I looked at the wiring drawing of the A series last night in my old factory Kaw manual. From your above description you have the CDI model. Electrically, the wiring is essentially the same as the early H bikes, without a discharge light.

However, the rectifier diodes are mounted internally to the alternator structure (as opposed the the H1's remote rectifier mounted on the back side of the battery box).

Should you have a diode failure you are committed to opening up the alternator for repairs, rather than simply replacing and external rectifier.

Inside the alternator there appears to be 9 diodes in the rectifier circuit (again like the stock H1 rectifier). 6 of these diodes form the three phase full wave rectifier bridge and are connected to the red wire that goes to feed the battery.

The remaining 3 diodes form another bridge and are connected to the white wire used for regulator voltage sense of alternator output.

The black and green wires are the field control wires for the brushes. I suggest you be careful applying full battery voltage to these as controlling voltage from the regulator is usually reduced (last I checked my H1 it was around 8v static with the key on).

Should you want to modernize the system with a solid state regulator (Ford VR166) you could omit the white wire from the circuit (secure it so it won't short on something though) and wire your system as this:

kawtriple.com/mraxl/tips/regulator/convwiringwo.jpg

However, without being able to replace the rectifier with a modern unit you will still be relying on old diodes within the alternator to behave.

If you go this route try to get a quality regulator (Standard Motor products etc) as many brand names (Blue Streak) are now questionable Chinese stuff.

J

[mraxl]

I know nothing about A7 and probably shouldn't have even posted.
Just be aware that technically a "magnito" is a rotor with permanent magnet segments that do not have an windings or brushes. Regulators for those are different than for rotors with field windings.
There are also different regulators/rectifiers for three wire vs two wire stator outputs.
Just make sure what you use is compatible with your system.

[lc]

Regulator suggested

"the lifan rectifier regulator is the one to use because there is no field coil in a magnito."

This is not what you have! You HAVE a controlling field (as opposed to a permanent magnet "magneto")

J

[H2 Dude]

I had to take it apart to get at the white wire to remove the solder.
Love all those diodes..
Anyway Lc If I re hook everything up , should I get some voltage from the black wire out of the regulator?

[lc]

Aug 10, 2012 19:35:06 GMT -5 H2 Dude said:

I had to take it apart to get at the white wire to remove the solder.
Love all those diodes..
Anyway Lc If I re hook everything up , should I get some voltage from the black wire out of the regulator?

Yes. This is backwards to the colour coding of the H1 (H1 uses green wire to supply power to field)

The black wire coming from the voltage regulator is a power supply for the field (rotor) within the alternator. The alt. field (rotating rotor) is grounded internally and the regulator is grounded directly to the alternator by the green wire. (Green and black are the two wires that lead to the alternator brushes). There must be power across the black and green wires (key on) from the regulator to excite the alternator field. This power is transfered to the rotor through the brushes.

No power here= no field magnetism= no output from alternator (from red wire). As I said the alternator must have power to the field to make power at output (red).

The alternator setup you have is essentially the same as a Ford car that uses a remote regulator (including rectifier diodes built into the alternator).

Have a close look here, you can see the internal wiring of the alternator including the black and green wires that excite/control the field. ;

3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/aseries/pg6wiring-a-cdi.jpg

J

[H2 Dude]

Thanks LC
OK update
I connect my regulator and leave unplugged to Gen....check wires exiting..Black to ground I have 12 V..connect green to ground I have 12v , same as white as the white and black are connected at regulator.
Now I connect my meter neg to black and red to green at brushes and nothing . reverse ..same..

So I remove rotor and test again.
Using digital meter set at 200 I get 6.5 ohms
If I use my analog set at Rx10 I get .65..RX1 being too low..

Just to compare I used the digital on my NOS and old H1B rotor Both read 5.8 ohms . the analog almost .6 at RX10

I rarely use the analog so I'm a little lost on the readings.

And yet the readings are the same so I am assuming my rotor is good.

My analog is a cheaper..lol
Thoughts Lc

[lc]

All the readings from the voltage reg sound plausible.

The green wire,although a ground for the regulator, might have power when checked open to ground, as there is possibly circuits within the regulator being powered and use the green to complete their circuit(s) to ground.

Looking at my old manual there is a pic of your rotor being meter tested. There are two slip rings mounted side by side on the one end of the rotor. The manual calls for the resistance to be 3.5-5.5 ohms (same specification for the H1 rotor) between these two slip rings.

Your readings are somewhat higher.

"Now I connect my meter neg to black and red to green at brushes and nothing . reverse ..same.."

This indicates there is a brush/connection problem to the field's brushes within the alternator. Have you accessed the brushes and checked for proper length/cleanliness/solder connections? Are the slip rings on the rotor clean?

The alternator's green wire and the black wire each connect to their respective brush. Measuring the resistance of the green wire across to the alternator case should be 0 ohms (The green's brush appears to be connected to the case, as well as connected to the green wire).

For that matter, the alternator green wire must have continuity to the alternator case to provide the ground for the aforementioned regulator circuits.

Here is the rest of the early H and A series manual posted at Dale's site:

3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/aseries/aindex.htm

J

[H2 Dude]

Well LC I give up.
I replaced the black brush as the length was shorter than the green brush.
Both now same length. I check for continuity from brush to black wire..good.
Clean rotor , install , check for continuity between black and green brushes..6 ohms..good..re connect power and set my meter Neg to ground, pos to green and 12v..do the same with black ..12v BUT when I clip my neg to green and pos to black I get .13 v not 12v.
Does this sound right?

Green to body at X1 =0 Brush to body =0
Black to body =0 , Brush to body = 0
Both green and black wires make connection to brushes.

With red wire disconnect I get 12v coming out... I have no numbers to check the stator but there are no broken wires.

Update

Some success ;D
If I ground the gen body I get no voltage from black to ground , same as green.
If I remove ground it reads Voltage..

Now LC with gen sitting on my knee I disconnect Red from gen..connect Pos from meter ..turn key on ( battery low) and get 11.9 v..fire up drill and I get 12.5 v ;D

Ok I hook up battery charger..fire up drill and get 13.2..
If I hook the red wire into system there is no charge indicated.
Right now I have the battery on charge and will try later.

So what bothers me when I put the gen back into the motor at a later date will it ground out again?