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Post by zambia on Aug 27, 2014 10:15:44 GMT -5
Many of you know (and have tried to help) that I have suffered clutch slipping for at least 2 years on my S3. The fibres are new (Barnett's) and I also have tried new Kawasaki fibres. The springs I have currently are new "10% stronger" springs - and I have also tried NOS Kawasaki springs. I currently have 3 complete clutches...baskets, spring plates, bushings..everything. In my mind all 3 are near perfect and all 3 have exactly the same components. I have taken my clutch apart and put it back together 20 times and have never found anything amiss. But no matter how I try, when the pipes (Wirges) hit at just under 7K...she slips like crazy until I get out of the throttle. There is one thing bugging me from the diagram in the shop manual. Have a look at the picture below and see if you can figure out what the annotated item is - whatever it may be, none of the 3 clutches I have ..has this thing. Could it be the thing that prevents slippage? LOL Disregard the fact that this seems to be an S2 clutch with only 6 fibres and 5 steels. The H series clutch also seem to have a similar item. Right now I have a fibre going in first...straight onto the floor of the basket. Please help - liquid rewards available for the one who solves this most irritating issue.  |
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Post by lc on Aug 27, 2014 10:44:45 GMT -5
That "thing" acts essentially as a steel. Omission of this part will effectively reduce the clutch plate stack up height by its thickness and cause subsequent loss of spring pressure pre-load, hence your slipping issue.The thing also provides a friction face for the inside face of the first fiber plate you installed. You NEED it!
BTW, the early h1 clutch hubs used a similar setup, but used two steels in that location. However to clear the basket's outer radius the inner most steel (of these pair) had a reduced OD (have a look at your '69's setup). So, if you don't have the part you might want to adapt two steels similar to the early H1 setup I refer.
So, does your 400's aluminum clutch hub have a integral wear surface for the inner friction plate (like the H2/late H1) or does it look like the pic? If it looks like the pic my above remarks apply.
J
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Post by zambia on Aug 27, 2014 11:17:32 GMT -5
That "thing" acts essentially as a steel. Omission of this part will effectively reduce the clutch plate stack up height by its thickness and cause subsequent loss of spring pressure pre-load, hence your slipping issue.The thing also provides a friction face for the inside face of the first fiber plate you installed. You NEED it! BTW, the early h1 clutch hubs used a similar setup, but used two steels in that location. However to clear the basket's outer radius the inner most steel (of these pair) had a reduced OD (have a look at your '69's setup). So, if you don't have the part you might want to adapt two steels similar to the early H1 setup I refer. So, does your 400's aluminum clutch hub have a integral wear surface for the inner friction plate (like the H2/late H1) or does it look like the pic? If it looks like the pic my above remarks apply. J Hi Scott - thanks for the reply. Yes the basket seems to have an integrated surface in place of that device - perhaps that has worn below service limits or perhaps it needs some "roughing up" so the fibres can gain traction? Ned and I looked at that surface because it looked like steel even though the basket is aluminum. The surface is smooth as a baby's ass right now. |
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Post by lc on Aug 27, 2014 11:31:46 GMT -5
Since you continue to have a slipping issue regardless of which setup you use, you may want to try installing an extra steel up against that inner hub surface. This will further preload the springs by the thickness of the added steel. Provided the added steel bottoms against the said surface and the clutch releases properly (without coil bind) this should help. Also be sure the outer friction plate tabs stay engaged in the basket (when the clutch is pulled in)if adding an extra steel.
Perhaps the 400 had an extra steel here in the factory build up in the first place, which is not shown in the parts illustration?
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Post by Walms on Aug 27, 2014 11:31:58 GMT -5
Do all your clutches look the same Ian? Like I told you, Roland has my 400 motor, the clutch worked perfect with better pipes...  Say the word and I'll arrange for him to bring it to Tweed.  |
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Post by mraxl on Aug 27, 2014 11:35:01 GMT -5
Best not to mix apples & oranges..... here is S3/A clutch: 3cyl.com/mraxl/partdiag/clutch-s3.pngWhat tranny oil do you run? Is the pressure plate clocked in the correct position in relation to the basket? How are you adjusting clutch release? |
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Post by lc on Aug 27, 2014 11:40:37 GMT -5
That drawing looks more applicable..... |
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Post by JA-Moo on Aug 27, 2014 11:46:13 GMT -5
Yeah, only the early 500's had the "slip on" backing plate.
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Post by zambia on Aug 27, 2014 12:29:58 GMT -5
Best not to mix apples & oranges..... here is S3/A clutch: 3cyl.com/mraxl/partdiag/clutch-s3.pngWhat tranny oil do you run? Is the pressure plate clocked in the correct position in relation to the basket? How are you adjusting clutch release? Hi Dale - thanks for that diagram. Yes, this is what I am seeing. I am currently using wet-clutch specific Motul ester based oil, but have also gone through a few gallons of Bel-Ray. The plate is aligned properly - as for the release...I had a stocker on and it was in poor shape, so earlier this year I installed a sytec. I've adjusted it the same way as when I had it on my H2..8 o'clock on the arm I think? Could there be value in coarse sanding the contact patch? Just as an aside - I have not tested my latest rebuild (as of 11:30pm last night). But I have not really done anything significantly different, so I expect the problem will continue. What I did do was to remove the existing clutch and re-install ONLY components that had never previously been in the bike (I'm considering possibilities sushi as slightly dinged or warped steels etc.). So the current attempt has the best (by visual inspection) bushing, washers, steels, basket and plate of all the available parts. I had this apart at RB's and a lot of eyes were on it..but nothing jumped out at anyone as incorrect. One thing I haven't tried is that Honda gear oil some have talked about. I am looking for some of that stuff now. And Dale, I took your advise a couple of summers ago with that Grey Gasket Maker - a bit messy but amazing how it seals with even the thinnest little bead. |
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Post by mraxl on Aug 27, 2014 13:03:52 GMT -5
I can't imagine a slipping clutch on an stock S3 if properly adjusted and using correct oil.
I don't know what Motul oil as mentioned is.... but Honda HP is good oil. It may take a while for the saturated plates to adapt to any given oil change. Belray has a couple of different types... they aren't the same.
If it were mine, I'd go back to basics.... in spec fibres, stock release w/proper adjustment, good oil. Adjust release with contact then back off 1/8 turn. There is no need for Sytec on an S3 w/standard springs.. and no need for other than std springs w/stock motor... regardless of pipes.
8 o'clock is good IF you back off 1/8 turn.
A sharp box cutter fixes the case sealer problem!
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Post by zambia on Aug 27, 2014 13:19:13 GMT -5
I can't imagine a slipping clutch on an stock S3 if properly adjusted and using correct oil. I don't know what Motul oil as mentioned is.... but Honda HP is good oil. It may take a while for the saturated plates to adapt to any given oil change. Belray has a couple of different types... they aren't the same. If it were mine, I'd go back to basics.... in spec fibres, stock release w/proper adjustment, good oil. Adjust release with contact then back off 1/8 turn. There is no need for Sytec on an S3 w/standard springs.. and no need for other than std springs w/stock motor... regardless of pipes. 8 o'clock is good IF you back off 1/8 turn. A sharp box cutter fixes the case sealer problem! I agree - it just doesn't make sense. The Barnett plates are some kind of inorganic material. Notably, I had no slip with the stock pipes..when I put on the Wirges, the fun began...when I first pulled it apart, one plate was actually broken to bits. |
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Post by Walms on Aug 27, 2014 13:23:46 GMT -5
The only thing that felt weird to me on Ian's clutch was the minuscule amount the clutch needed to be pulled no matter how much slack you gave it in the handle... Almost like there was something preventing it from backing off further within the motor. This was thought of and looked at when we were at RB's although nothing was found to be the culprit
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Post by lc on Aug 27, 2014 13:39:08 GMT -5
The only thing that felt weird to me on Ian's clutch was the minuscule amount the clutch needed to be pulled no matter how much slack you gave it in the handle... Almost like there was something preventing it from backing off further.... My guess is there is an incorrect/incompatible/worn part that continues to be carried over despite the change of release, plate stack up or fluid. Is the correct S3 aluminum hub actually installed (an incorrect hub may have taller spring towers, hence little pre-load)? Are the correct thickness' of washers installed under the hub and between the basket and the input bearing? Are the correct push rods installed? How about the spring cups/washers? Did someone install a ball bearing within the push rods such as the H2? Is the cable hanging up? A few things to perhaps confirm... J |
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Post by Walms on Aug 27, 2014 13:49:02 GMT -5
Nothing is hung up externally and it seems loose when disengaged. By weird, I mean much more sudden of a disengagement compared to my 500.
This is why I'm suggesting he put my complete clutch in from my 400 motor... Hell, he can even have the ball bearing actuator and cable to try.
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Post by pipe welder on Aug 27, 2014 13:53:08 GMT -5
I can't imagine a slipping clutch on an stock S3 if properly adjusted and using correct oil. I don't know what Motul oil as mentioned is.... but Honda HP is good oil. It may take a while for the saturated plates to adapt to any given oil change. Belray has a couple of different types... they aren't the same. If it were mine, I'd go back to basics.... in spec fibres, stock release w/proper adjustment, good oil. Adjust release with contact then back off 1/8 turn. There is no need for Sytec on an S3 w/standard springs.. and no need for other than std springs w/stock motor... regardless of pipes. 8 o'clock is good IF you back off 1/8 turn. A sharp box cutter fixes the case sealer problem! I picked up the Honda HP Trans Oil at Machine Racing in Newmarket. Any Honda Dealer should have it. They have changed the label but it is the same oil. I found a big improvement on the H2 (which was slipping) after switching to "HP Trans". Can't believe oil could effect it that much. I also had the Barnet plates. I haven't had much opportunity to wind it up but I'm hoping for more improvement as the saturated plates adapt as mraxl said. It's obviously worth the cost of the oil considering there's little to no work involved. Good luck.  Racing. The lable has che |
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