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Post by lc on Sept 13, 2010 0:47:24 GMT -5
Oil is not directly fed to the bearing that failed. For lubrication/cooling the LH cylinder's inner (RH) bearing relies on the residual fuel/air mix circulating through it and then up/down a passage way to that cylinders RH transfer port. The center and right cylinder's RH bearing are the same lubrication configuration. Is this passageway clear? I try to assemble the engine with the cutout of the crank seal over this hole for better lube flow rather than rely on the seal's reduced OD in this area to keep the hole clear.
There have been reports of differing radius' on the OD edges of the outer races from one bearing maker to another. The original NTN bearings kaw used on the triple cranks had a slightly larger radius here than some other bearings of the same part number ( in this case 6205 C3). The larger radius allowed more of the aforementioned lubrication hole to the transfer to be exposed. Is this lube hole still clear with the bearing in position?
Before re-assembling you may want to enlarge/radius the entry of this hole (and all the other oil feed holes to the crank) slightly (where it intersects the bearing/seal junction) to be sure they will flow well when the crank is installed.
Judging from the residual oil in the crankcase there was plenty of oil getting into the crankcase. Your piston looks to be not scored from any sort of seizure. Usually if a two stroker is starved of oil the piston overheats and seizes in its bore prior to bearing failure.
Interesting how the shrapnel made it through the seal to the adjacent bearing.
The case journal actually has a steel insert cast into it where the bearings are located. From your pic the damage from a possible slight bearing spin looks minimal. Bearing mount Loctite is specified to be able to correct as much as .005in. gap as I recall. I would tend to give the effected insert a light rub with scotch brite (to remove the glaze) and apply red locktite on reassembly. Out of interest what sort of noise did the bottom end of engine make after the bearing failed (or was it shrapnel in the head/combustion chamber you heard)? Was it very noticeable of did you have to listen for it?
J
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Post by givr on Sept 13, 2010 7:24:42 GMT -5
Hey Mike, I quickly skimmed the earlier parts of this thread seeing whether you got the crank rebuilt. Was it?
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Post by H2 Dude on Sept 13, 2010 9:13:27 GMT -5
It was making a slight noise at first . Many thought it may have been a clutch nut coming loose. We rode a little farther down to NorthPort where I thought the metallic noise was coming from my H2 . it would disappear then come back . Here I am listening to my engine thinking the worst. That's how loud it was . I looked behind me and saw Mike. He pulled the clutch in and pulled over.
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Post by johnnyc14 on Sept 13, 2010 11:54:28 GMT -5
lc your post makes me think I should split my cases again and check those oil passages before I completely assemble the engine in my H1D. I guess I can check the flow through those passages with the cases assembled? Thanks for that great information for us triple virgins.
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Post by zambia on Sept 13, 2010 12:17:54 GMT -5
I was thinking the seal did the damage, not the bearing. The rubber melted and plugged the passage, and the sealer springs wedged into the piston skirt. I don't see any bearing shrapnel?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2010 13:08:30 GMT -5
One reason I scrap the intake rubbers is, I look at the poor condition of the rubber itself. I have never found one that I would trust to stay together long. All that black goo in the cases, is there a chance a chunk of rubber with shoe goo on it didn't go thru the engine plugging things up like a bearing, causing it to O/H and causing the seal to melt down? It looks like a pile of black stuff for just a seal....
too bad about the bike Mike.
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Post by Walms on Sept 13, 2010 14:01:57 GMT -5
I guess we will need Rocket to chime in and confirm but to me the photos looked like the broken cage gutted the seal. I doubt the seal would melt being vulcanized rubber of some sort. More likely to burn then melt I'd imagine. The shoe goo on the other hand, good point, although I was giving a poke in North Port out of curiosity and it seemd to be intact and consolidated on the outside at least. I was going to make a comment to Mike that it looked like it was holding up well so far.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2010 14:28:35 GMT -5
just the colour of the mess and the amount made me wonder where it all came from. When I blew my base gasket last week it was puking out Blue oil, no black at all.
good luck
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Post by lc on Sept 13, 2010 14:45:30 GMT -5
I was thinking the seal did the damage, not the bearing. The rubber melted and plugged the passage, and the sealer springs wedged into the piston skirt. I don't see any bearing shrapnel? Z, Look at the fourth pic (the one above the pic of the oil lines) You will see shiny "pepper" (shrapnel) in the oil residue on the left side of the seal. This is immediately beside the bearing that didn't fail. The bearing to the right of the seal (that failed) has dark "iron filings" along the seal's edge. The actual bearing that failed appears to be gutted of balls. J
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Post by lc on Sept 13, 2010 14:55:19 GMT -5
lc your post makes me think I should split my cases again and check those oil passages before I completely assemble the engine in my H1D. I guess I can check the flow through those passages with the cases assembled? Thanks for that great information for us triple virgins. The passages can be checked without disassembly (while the cylinders are off). At the base of each cylinder's RH transfer port you will see an oil hole. Pour some two stroke oil down each of these holes (fill the hole) and see if the oil level in the holes drops. The other passageways are the three direct oil paths from the banjo fittings that pressure feed fresh oil to the left bearing of each cylinder. With banjo removed oil should easily travel down each of these galleries too. J
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Post by johnnyc14 on Sept 13, 2010 15:15:01 GMT -5
Thanks LC, I'm on it.
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Post by rocket on Sept 13, 2010 16:49:34 GMT -5
Hey Mike, I quickly skimmed the earlier parts of this thread seeing whether you got the crank rebuilt. Was it? Yes givr . tripletriplenut did it during the winter .
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Post by rocket on Sept 13, 2010 17:12:57 GMT -5
Oil is not directly fed to the bearing that failed. For lubrication/cooling the LH cylinder's inner (RH) bearing relies on the residual fuel/air mix circulating through it and then up/down a passage way to that cylinders RH transfer port. The center and right cylinder's RH bearing are the same lubrication configuration. Is this passageway clear? I try to assemble the engine with the cutout of the crank seal over this hole for better lube flow rather than rely on the seal's reduced OD in this area to keep the hole clear. There have been reports of differing radius' on the OD edges of the outer races from one bearing maker to another. The original NTN bearings kaw used on the triple cranks had a slightly larger radius here than some other bearings of the same part number ( in this case 6205 C3). The larger radius allowed more of the aforementioned lubrication hole to the transfer to be exposed. Is this lube hole still clear with the bearing in position? Before re-assembling you may want to enlarge/radius the entry of this hole (and all the other oil feed holes to the crank) slightly (where it intersects the bearing/seal junction) to be sure they will flow well when the crank is installed. Judging from the residual oil in the crankcase there was plenty of oil getting into the crankcase. Your piston looks to be not scored from any sort of seizure. Usually if a two stroker is starved of oil the piston overheats and seizes in its bore prior to bearing failure. Interesting how the shrapnel made it through the seal to the adjacent bearing. The case journal actually has a steel insert cast into it where the bearings are located. From your pic the damage from a possible slight bearing spin looks minimal. Bearing mount Loctite is specified to be able to correct as much as .005in. gap as I recall. I would tend to give the effected insert a light rub with scotch brite (to remove the glaze) and apply red locktite on reassembly. Out of interest what sort of noise did the bottom end of engine make after the bearing failed (or was it shrapnel in the head/combustion chamber you heard)? Was it very noticeable of did you have to listen for it? J All the oil routes seemed good accept the one filled with rubber . I am thinking the bearing heated up and rthen began to cook the rubber seals and then exploded into the casing . The first sound was a clicking noise like taking the end of a screwdriver and tapping it on a solid pipe or piece of metal . I thought it may have been a spark problem for a few seconds then it went away . Then the motor also seemed to stall and loose power , so I pulled over . I thought it was a fuel problem at first . Sat for a minute or 2 then started it up and it seemed fine .Then we drove over the skyway bridge not feeling very comfortable with what just happened . ( Note - when on any kind of incline engine would loose power or seem to starve of fuel ) By the time I got over the bridge and turned right onto our next route it bogged again as if no fuel . I shut it down imediately . We talked about what it could be and so we changed the plugs and headed on our way . Was driving at 120 clicks to keep up to the rest of the dudes and it seemed really nice . Lot's of power so I worked my way right up to beside Ian . Then came the horrid sound of metal nashing together . Ian looked over as he heard it as did several other guys near me . Shut it down immediately again and coasted to a stop . Tried to kick it over but it became very difficult and then it locked up . So we left it and threw it on Ian's truck with his lovely wife driving as pilot and savior to pick me and the bike up . Thanks lc for your very informative input . Very appreciated . Hope my explantion of the sounds helps and gives you some idea as to what went wrong . DId you look at the piston pics . What did you think of them being so differnt in color and texture . Mike
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Post by rocket on Sept 13, 2010 17:24:28 GMT -5
One reason I scrap the intake rubbers is, I look at the poor condition of the rubber itself. I have never found one that I would trust to stay together long. All that black goo in the cases, is there a chance a chunk of rubber with shoe goo on it didn't go thru the engine plugging things up like a bearing, causing it to O/H and causing the seal to melt down? It looks like a pile of black stuff for just a seal.... too bad about the bike Mike. Interesting point Don and thankyou . All the shogoo that I installed on the rubber intake was gooed onto the outside of the intake where I saw cracking and splitting .. None in the inside that I could see . Shoogoo becomes very hard when it is cured . As you suggested it got sucked into the engine if gasoline made it soft again . I will exsperiment with this theory tomorrow and let you know what gas does to it . I just noticed that walms made a point about how they were holding up well . Having had them on and of at least 10 times or more they seemed pretty good as this stuff basically imitates a rubber shoe or runner . I had spilled lot's of gas on them prior to this crank problem as my shut off will not stop the flow of fuel if I remove tha hoses .Diaphram is frigged or something . Well I now have the time to fix that problem but as far as the crank goes I will have to sit on it a few months as cash is no where to be seen at this pont of the restoration . Thankyou once again Don . Mike
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Post by tripletriplenut on Sept 13, 2010 18:14:20 GMT -5
that bearing was not getting any oil. thats why the seal is melted and the piston is dry from all the heat that the bearing was generating. then it exploded the cage. send it to me with new seal kit and I'll take care of it.
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